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| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 2001 Registered: 10-2002  |
This is a comment I left on a friend's Facebook note about "Steps to Christ", in which I mentioned how just before theologically leaving Adventism for Christ, I had researched the two questions: 1) Why was the first chapter not included in the original publication? 2) Why was that first edition printed by Fleming Revell instead of by Adventist publishing? The friend responded with a link - http://www.msc1888.org/articles/theGCstoryinSC.htm Afterwards I wrote the following... ****** The second edition was published by SDA publishing... I saw it in the Loma Linda heritage room, which is where I also saw the rare first edition... they had only one copy which was kept in a vault. It didn't have half the explanation that Douglass offered in his article, though. Just a pasted in note put on top of some of the copyright/credit information inside which stated that she'd gone to the first company and then to SDA publishing. What I ended up researching (on a tip from a friend) had to do with the date of it's publication and the controversy that was going on in the wake of the great 1888 argument and its subsequent revivals in 1892, etc. (Funny - notice that the link you provided to the first article is from a website of 1888 enthusiasts, haha!) Later on--I think while she was in her Australian exile--she gave away or sold copies of "Steps" together with E.J. Waggonner's book, "Christ and His Righteousness". I never progressed far enough in the research to come up with conclusive answers or finish the research paper about it I initially set out to write. The hunch was that internal drama with the old guard (which saw Jones & Waggonner's message of justification by faith in 1888 as a threat to SDA's foundational beliefs) drove her to an outside publisher to put forth a book in which the message was strongly influenced by Jones & Waggonner's preaching. The tone in "Steps" exhibits a focus on Christ and His love and sneaks almost beautifully close to sounding like the gospel of God's grace. It's a dramatic change of tone from her earlier writings, from the vast bulk of her pre-1888 writings, which focus on law, sanctuary, state of the dead, and so on. However, she seems to have vacillitated between the attempt to focus on Christ's righteousness, SDA particulars, and incredibly harsh judgmental and un-edifying condemnation of people in various "selected messages" or "testimonies to the church" books. Various former Adventists have tried to harmonize her extreme changes of tone into a sort of consistent theological system she held, however, I don't think she held a consistent theology. The near-grace tone of some of the 1880s and 1890s writings versus the harsh "you'd-better-be-perfect" messages and "you're-worthless" messages from her "testimonies" and other books both from the same era and before and after... what it all suggests is BPD and possibly MPD. Studies show similar personality changes in people who have suffered severe head trauma. As a result, the divisions in Adventism reflect the same BPD or MPD which Ellen seems to have suffered from because different factions in Adventism cling to different parts of her writings -- that is, they prefer certain tones she used when in certain moods or personalities. Because her tones contrast so widely, it is very difficult to harmoniously syncretize her writings into any sort of consistent system or theology. Adventists who have tried to give equal weight to all of her writings without ignoring or marginalizing certain writings tend to be the Adventists in the most extreme conservative and legalistic camps who champion the earliest days of Adventism as being the most true and "on track" in Adventism's history. The reason for this stems directly from a belief that the Protestant Reformation was built on: whenever sanctification is elevated to having salvational importance, it invariably overtakes and nullifies justification by faith. That is to say, whenever "works" are added to "faith" as part of salvation, "faith" gets unceremoniously shoved aside and made secondary to works. Again, in other words whenever we declare our works are necessary for our salvation instead of Christ's finished work alone, then we declare that Christ's work is in fact *not* finished. The legalistic writings of Ellen White and Adventism are where Adventism began and when equal weight is given to all of her writings, the messages of the legalistic writings overtakes messages of the more grace-like writings. (There is another group, generally in Adventist administration, who claim to give equal weight to all her writings--mind you, almost every Adventist claims the same even while figuratively locking certain writings in the closet and throwing away the key--but this group's claim runs parallel to that of Catholicism which sees "truth" as not necessarily having a consistent theology, but rather that truth is the *institution* of Adventism, and so the truth can grow and expand and even change things from black to white, reverse previous claims and so on, etc., so long as the institution and a few selected foundations are reverenced and left intact.) Adventism cannot emerge from studying the Bible alone, and Adventism cannot survive without EGW (This was demonstrated by change in the fundamental beliefs after Desmond Ford's research was rejected and he was defrocked -- the changes to the fundamental beliefs removed the words "sole authority" from the statement about the Bible and added the words "an authoritative source of truth" to the statement about Ellen White and her writings). Because of this all of Adventism reflects Ellen's BPD or MPD. Various groups or factions of Adventists cling to various tones (poles, or personalities) that Ellen was in at the time she wrote those certain writings. As a result, Adventism as a whole looks a lot like Ellen White -- ups and downs, divided, saying one thing at one moment and then turning around the next, showing love and care and then showing extreme condemnation and legalism. Oh what a relief to be in Christ alone!! I should add why I ultimately abandoned my research. It's exactly the same as when I was studying philosophy. I didn't stop at one philosophy or another, nor did I try to understand every philosophy or map them all on the wall. I looked at one and then discarded it after finding it didn't hold up well. I wasn't searching for the science of mapping philosophies, I was hungry for answers. I wasn't interested in philosophy as a study; I was running hard trying to find truth. It was the exact same way when I began researching EGW after returning from my year as an SDA missionary. I was hot on the trail, hungry for and only interested in finding something... truth? I thought I already knew it. I thought we had it. I was looking for some kind of real life, a certain something I couldn't completely understand, a living Spirit, or the latter rain, or something like that. The "key" so to speak that, like many Adventists who are into EGW's writings, seemed to be somewhere in her writings likely from the early days of Adventism. What happened is that the "life" I was looking for (Christ) took hold of me, leading from one stepping stone to another until much to my surprise, He led me right out of Adventism and to repentance at His feet, resting in Him alone for my salvation. It was the most scary and nervous step I ever had to take in my life -- trusting Him instead of our "truth". But since then I have never looked back and have never been the same. I found life, or rather Life found me. I was hungry for Him and for nothing else. After knowing Him, my research and all of Adventism I gladly counted as loss, as dung, because I knew Him and found righteousness not of my own, not from the law, but found solely in Him alone and credited to me by faith, not by works. The Lord became my salvation, the Lord became my righteousness. The Lord became my rest, my living Sabbath twenty-four hours a day and seven days a week. The stepping stones I had jumped around on from one to another (that is, the things I had looked at from EGW/SDA during my research days) now sank out of sight into the river behind me and I marvel at how God had used such weak and unsteady "steps" to help me out of such raging errors to safety in Him! Now that I am with Him and know He is with me, no more "steps" are necessary. He lives inside me and I live inside Him (shoot, I'm SEATED with Him in heaven as the Bible says! That's how saved I am by Him!)... so now how can I take a step "to" Him? He's in me, I'm in Him. The distance is gone and today I dwell in the Holy of Holies, and He dwells in me. Hallelu Yah! | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 785 Registered: 12-2007 |
Beautiful ! I got chills reading this. (in a good way) Thank you so much for sharing :-) Francie | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 1005 Registered: 7-2005  |
Ramone! Beautiful! Extremely well done! May I copy and paste your words into an email to a friend? | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1070 Registered: 3-2009 |
Ramone says:
Thank you Ramone for this statement. I always thought that Steps to Christ was one of her most beautiful books. And it may be, but not for Christians. As you say, Christians are already in Christ and Christ in them, so we don't need any steps to Him. We are already there. With you I exclaim Hallelujah! Hec | ||
| Yenc Registered user Username: Yenc Post Number: 88 Registered: 6-2008 |
I presume that when you mentioned BPD and MPD in paragraph 4, you are referring to bipolar disorder and multiple personality disorder. It is indisputable that she had incurred severe organic brain damage as a child. And I believe that when James White and others witnessed her "weird" behaviour in her teens, considering the religious fervor sweeping America at the time, they saw dollar signs flash before their eyes, knowing this could be the key to a very profitable venture. Today we see SDA church administrators and leaders refusing to leave denominational employment because they would lose their benefits, even when they know the doctrines are unbiblical. It takes integrity and courage (gifts of God!) to step out in faith, to follow where God leads. Ramone, your paper is a GEM! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11304 Registered: 12-2003  |
Excellent, Ramone. Really excellent. I agree with your BPD/MPD theory--I've actually suspected for a long time that she had some sort of dissociative identity disorder, perhaps even MPD. She was able to completely contradict herself—not only between the end and the beginning of her career, but throughout it. And she seemed not to see any problem with her confusion. Spiritual abuse often plays a huge part in the development of dissociative disorders, as does physical abuse of various sorts. I just don't see her head trauma as explaining all the symptoms she had. Yes, temporal lobe epilepsy induces religious hallucinations, but that doesn't explain her heretical statements about Jesus and her consistent return to heresies about him in many statements well into the early 1900s. And your point that Adventism reflects this split or multiple personality phenomenon is right on. SO true. Yes, Yenc, the dollar signs drove James, I am absolutely convinced. Ellen started out as an easily manipulated young thing that suddenly became a celebrity--but as the years passed, she used and seemed even to enjoy the power she had. After James died, she did some of her worst character assassinations (think Ballenger, Kellogg, etc.). Identity disorders provide a powerful and convenient "place" to hide and to avoid accountability. While they are profound and deep, they are not innocent. And spiritual abuse and deceit flourishes in people who are not alive in Christ. Ultimately, it is a choice either to remain "hidden" and unaccountable or to submit to the Lord Jesus and allow Him to deliver one. Very good paper, Ramone. Colleen | ||
| Surfy Registered user Username: Surfy Post Number: 662 Registered: 11-2007 |
I saw that discussion of Facebook, read it but could not join in. I was amazed to see the lengths that a couple of people were taking to defend her. Surfy | ||
| Yenc Registered user Username: Yenc Post Number: 89 Registered: 6-2008 |
I think in years gone by, before we had all the specific names for mental and personality disorders, they were classified informally as "demon possession" and I think that's not far off base! We think we are too sophisticated to still believe in demon possession, and it's more comfortable to call behavioral and psychological disorders by their modern names. But they are still the work of the archenemy! I think many of the aspects of EGW's life and work were truly demonic! Isn't it Satan's desire and goal to destroy God's people and obliterate God's message, nullify Christ's purposes, contradict God's declarations, and control human life? He has been at it since Eden, and he's still at it! And what better way than to convince people that any aberrations are merely "mental illness" or individual "disorders" and that medicine has all the answers. I don't mean that medicine has no place, but that it is not the whole answer, and it doesn't deal with the real causes. Healing is more likely if these issues can be seen as spiritual problems, and given over to God's healing power. Jesus commanded demons to leave people when he was on earth, and the healed ones were able to live normally thereafter. Psychiatry is a specialty that is notoriously and willfully disparaging of spiritual answers to mental and behavioral problems. And that is another victory for Satan. Yes, I believe Satan was and is responsible for the distorted application of biblical teachings, the false prophecies, the emphasis on legalism and the lack of confidence of salvation inherent in adventism. He used EGW to further these goals. Perhaps it is also part of his purpose to emphasize the importance of the medical work. LLUMC is world famous for its work, but how many can truly find the TRUTH there? | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1281 Registered: 7-2007 |
The strange thing is that even Adventists recognize that the Lord used men such as Spurgeon (1834 - 1892) and Moody (1837 - 1899) in a mighty way. Yet Spurgeon was saved as a young man by simply hearing a sermon exhorting the hearers to "look and live." Moody, also, simply trusted Christ for forgiveness of sin and was converted. I'm amazed at the stories of real Christians I'm reading of the way God dealt with them, the way they were filled with His Spirit and sensed His Presence. I wish I would have read more of them and not just books from "Pacific Press," back when I was an Adventist. It would certainly have given me "cognitive dissonance" and made me wonder why ordinary Christians who weren't Adventists could actually sense God's presence and experience such answers to prayer. I never sensed God's presence when I was an Adventist. Ellen White says accepting Christ's sacrifice in one's behalf is not enough. You need to do more. If you don't do "such and so..." you won't be saved. Even the most liberal Adventist churches say: "we're saved by faith, but..." All the cults have that "but..." Real Christianity says "DONE! Jesus did it ALL!" The cults respond to that by saying "that's greasy grace" and "so then you can murder, etc. because you're saved?!" but they don't understand grace and the fact that real Christians are filled with the Holy Spirit. They don't understand that the Holy Spirit makes a real change in people's "wanter," in their motives and everything. Since the cults don't have the Holy Spirit, all they can do is simply "try to be good" instead of embracing real Christianity!  | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 2002 Registered: 10-2002 |
Yes, Colleen, you're right that her BPD does not explain all of her symptoms. When I pray about it BPD feels more correct than MPD, by the way. When I ask what explains the rest of the symptoms, this answer comes: "pride". She didn't want to appear to have contradicted herself and covered up her mistakes with her "visions" and various condemnations. At some point she must have recognized her bi-polarity, but her pride kept her from admitting the problem and calling out to God for help, not to mention repenting to Him and to all the people she wounded to protect herself and her image. Yenc, I'm fortunate to know several people who have had (or currently have) bi-polar disorder or multiple-personality disorder. And I can say with 100% certainty that their cases are not "demon possession". BPD seems to (often) be a result of growing up in extreme repression, possibly including trauma (such as abuse) or in one case I know not being given enough repression from parents! MPD on the other hand seems to almost exclusively result from severe childhood trauma, particularly from sexual abuse, so severe to the child's mind that it fractures into various parts in order to cope and move on. People who have suffered from MPD tend to actually be incredibly intelligent, which is easy to understand given the amount of activity their brains have had to keep up in order to sustain more than one personality. Psychology and the truth of spiritual things are not in conflict. When psychology is submitted to God and listens to His Spirit, the result is powerful and can lead to healing in which God's promise is fulfilled before our very eyes, that "He restoreth my soul." When psychology ignores the spiritual (primarily when it ignores the Holy Spirit), then it becomes severely handicapped in its ability to bring healing and restoration to people. On the opposite hand, knowing about spirituality is good and wonderful but can also become mere "knowledge" in the exact same fashion as Holy Spirit-less psychology. For example, I know people who believe every other problem they see in society is because of a spirit. This results in them making some very creative categories or names of spirits. E.g., "a spirit of exhibitionism" when people are displaying too much leg, or in a more relevant case, when seeing a prostitution district here in Japan they pray against the "spirit of prostitution". While the spirit of prostitution is indeed a biblical term, it is not necessarily the cause of the prostitution in the hearts of the people engaging in it. The customers are, for example, slaves to the spirit of lust for various reasons. The prostitutes on the other hand generally have two root causes, one being that they are slaves to *materialism* and the other being that they do not know their own value. These are the two roots of Japanese prostitution, however it can vary in cases and in other countries "poverty" is also a great factor (but it is generally not a factor here). One friend was involved in spiritual deliverance ministry in another country and actually did cast out the spirit of prostitution from a certain prostitute, yet in her case she seemed to have made a sort of deal with an actual spirit which gave her incredible powers of seduction. However, the people here in Japan are generally not half so spiritually aware or active. But more to the point of what's being discussed here, that prostutite who had made contact with a spirit was actually herself wanting to be Christian and wanting to be delivered. And that brings up the important point I'm moving towards. "Demon possession" is something we in the west know very, very little about. This is due in part to the materialism/intellectualism based culture outside the church but more especially *inside* the church. Just as the world sees only the material and intellectual, in the same way the church also often sees only the material and intellectual. (Hence things like cessationism.) Spirituality is often equated with theology in Christianity, both consciously and unconsciously. "Possession" is seen as something existing generally in the third world, so we don't have much experience observing or understanding it. We've formed common mental images of the cases of it in the gospels but we have very little knowledge of what it actually is and how it occurs. The "how" is incredibly important most of the time. Not all of the time, but most of the time. Generally in third world cultures there is a lot more open spiritual activity -- that is, spiritual rituals and contact made with actual spirits. These are like open doors inviting in spirits. But in the west such spiritual activity is not half as common (even though it does exist or have an occasional surge in various fads). Full-on "possession" as a result is, I believe, generally rare in the west and developed countries. However there are various degress of possession. And in fact, the word "possession" is not helpful here. The Greek word is actually merely "demonized". The word "possession" comes with the connotation of full control or submission to a master in the sense of being the property of that master. In cases of actual demonization (I will cease using the word "possession" in the rest of this post) such as in the case of the prostitute mentioned above, people often have --you could say-- a part of them inside crying out for deliverance which in a spiritual sense is not the "property" of that spirit. This part of that person is not the "property" of that spirit. The spirit does not "possess" that part. Internally there is a war going on -- spiritual and psychological. One part of you wants something, another part does not. Everybody experiences this in varying degrees. The most common demonizations are the same thing just carried to a more extreme degree. Paul warned people not to give the devil "a foothold" and this is crucial in understanding demonization. Demons cannot just infest people without some kind of permission. Either the person's, a parent's, or a third person performing some kind of act on the person resulting in opening a door to come in through (giving the devil a foothold to stand on) in the person. In one case I know someone who has what deliverance ministers call "a familiar spirit". This means that the person is in habitual contact with a spirit which impersonates the voice of God. The person is a Christian and believes in salvational doctrines very correctly, but in life matters they believe they are hearing from God. The fruit is sour, however in several ways I won't get into. Because of unhealed brokenness in the person's past, the familiar spirit is not let go of. The person was denied as a child by parents and the familiar spirit acts as a sort of projection of the person's own wishes. That's a long way of saying that the person wants something but because of their repression as a child (where they could have no voice), the person uses "God" to get what they want. Only they don't consciously think of it that way. The actual familiar spirit itself steps in to sort of assist that process, telling the person real facts and answers about things just enough to confirm to the person that it's "God" but never being able to produce good, fulfilling fruit in the person's life. The result is that the person remains true to that spirit but feels continually frustrated and believes people are continually frustrating God's will. Would I call that person "demonized"? Tricky question. The person is in contact with a demon but doesn't know it. It's not a matter of the demon having control of this person's motor-control functions. But this demon has a hook in the person's soul and stands on a foothold, in an open door, living in an unhealed wound from the person's youth. However, I should mention that I and that person prayed together many times for that past wound but it has remained unhealed because the person still clings to the familiar spirit. Recognition of the wound is there, and healing should be able to occur. But the near-fruit that the spirit seems to have brought ("almost fulfillments") have essentially created an addiction in that person's heart to that spirit. They always seem close to finally getting something, some ministry or happiness, etc., but then it's frustrated. The person knows their wound but is still looking to that spirit for fulfillment. A choice needs to be made to let go of that spirit, to ask God to come and kick it out. The bad fruits should be enough to show the person that the spirit speaking is not God, however these things are not a matter of intellectual recognition but are tied deeply to emotions. The person is incredibly held captive by certain fears. What God had us do was basically drop contact with the person because of the repetitive cycles of control coming from them, the repetitive cycles of praying for healing, and the continual dependance on that spirit and resistance to listening to people point out how bad its fruits have been in their life and in the lives of people around them. We continue to pray for the person as He leads, however. Most demonization (in the west) works with footholds that depend largely on the person's inner choice to continue to hold onto something -- usually some thing that seems to fulfill a need. This can be something like bitterness, anger, resentment, or an unfulfilled longing, lust, need for comfort, etc. Demonization often is closely tied to addiction in various forms, and what often prevents the eviction of the demon (in whatever measure its presence is tolerated) is simply because the heart is addicted to something the demon seems to supply. One last story is of a person I met at an old prayer meeting who like the above person knew salvation and doctrines very well and was a Christian, even a former Adventist! However there was severe demonization that came out later on (I missed those prayer meetings because I was out of country at the time) where the demon seemed to assume motor-control and the person overturned a sofa like it was a pancake before being restricted by the name of Jesus to sitting on another sofa. It turned out the person had undergone cultic sexual rituals as an infant and child in another country. This foothold was not created by the person themself but by their parents and whatever cult performed the ritual. When the person honestly received and accepted Jesus, part of the person was not fully set free from what had been done to it as a child and needed a lot of prayer, deliverance, and ministry. This doesn't click with a lot of our theology because we think things should automatically all be healed when someone receives Jesus. And then we start equating that their salvation must not be real or they must have believed in a faulty gospel, etc. However, if we think of something like the emotional wounds of child abuse, particularly sexual abuse, then we can easily admit that the wounds from such experiences will take time to heal. Perhaps demonization (in varying degrees) is not so different. Coming back to Ellen White, when I pray about it, I don't hear that she was "possessed". We might say she was "demonized", but that actually doesn't really spell out the problem either. She interacted with a demon and became addicted to it and her image. Her problem was not "possession" but was rather conscious cooperation and a lack of caring about it because pride was so strong that she valued her reputation more than the truth of the gospel. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6301 Registered: 9-2006  |
When I started reading this post, I started thinking 'open doors' even before I got to the point where you talked about it. Since I was involved in a deliverance ministry early on I have witnessed actual cases of demon possession, and its nothing like T.V. portrays it. Nor is it anything like most Christians portray either. I believe Ellen Whites 'open door' might have been plain rebellion, and if so it probably started when she would not take council from the church people at the Methodist church she was attending at the time. She insisted on William Millers teachings to be true, in spite of the church peoples attempts to meet with her, and dissuade her, which resulted in her eventual disassociation/removal from the church congregation at the time. This is not guess work on my part, it is a matter of record. What people commonly associate with demon possession is not what I have witnessed. I agree the word possession does not fit, and possibly demonized doesn't either. I don't have a clear concept of what the word demonized suggests. You're exactly right when you say many people over here attribute too much to 'a spirit of' everything from warts to capitalism. Well...not quite Ramone, but I think you get what I mean, I like to exaggerate a little to get a point across.  I think the word you may be looking for is 'control'? What I mean by that is that the spirit of anti-christ, which is in the world prevents that person from having deliverance. Now the next question is, deliverance from what? Deliverance from the hindrances in their lives, which hinders them from coming to Christ in repentance and being set free/healed. That is a far cry from what I have witnessed in a demon possessed person. I'm not claiming I know everything about demon possession, I actually know very little, I am merely rendering an opinion which may have a lot of holes in it. I doubt if the word 'conscious cooperation' in the sense that she knew it was demonic fits as an apt description either. I happen to think that in the early stages, when she had the hallucinations, times when she passes out from the rock to the head injury, and the people around her attributed these 'visions' to an act of God, it was more their fault/mistake, because they left off the word, and started setting her on a pedestal. Later on it placed demands on her to produce more, and then eventually guidance for the lazy, who replaced personal Bible study with her visions. This led eventually to her pride, and a false sense of importance, and she began to believe her own self importance. But whatever the subtle causation's, Adventism was born through that open door, the door to deceit, wrong doctrine, wrong headedness, and just plain wrong. I believe that there is a spirit that drives Adventism today, we witness it and call it rabbit holes, and various other names when trying to minister to these people. While the same spirit that drove her, drives Adventism today, it is not demon possession as I think of demon possession, and what I've seen of demon possession. Now I admit I've seen very few, but it all looks alike, and various people, mainly the Pentecostal variety, attribute what they think is demon possession that is not demon possession at all. Having said all this, I do believe there are spirits sent out to deceive the worlds peoples, and Adventism is right in the middle of it. Hence I use the word, 'The spirit behind Adventism. I am convinced at this point that just as people who have been involved with the occult, seances, Ouija boards and so on must renounce and repent of before full deliverance can take place, so the Adventist must renounce and repent of their part in it before full deliverance can take place. Pride is a real stronghold, it hides its self in us in so many subtle ways, and it takes spiritual discernment to see it at times. So when I speak of spiritual deliverance in the context of Adventism, I don't mean demon possession, but simply deliverance to set the person free to come to Christ, repent of it, and get rid of it. River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6302 Registered: 9-2006 |
I thought I was through, but I'm not. That is why, I believe, that it is so important for fervent prayer for the Adventist you are dealing with must accompany any efforts to free a person from this. Prayer for deliverance, and release for the person or persons involved, versus trying to educate them out. I doubt very much if that ugly thing that drives Adventism care very much for your great education! That spirit will wear you down and send you packing, if you try to deal with it with education. It'll have you so discouraged you won't know which end is up! It'll be you that needs prayer, stead of them. Guess I'm done now. River | ||
| Yenc Registered user Username: Yenc Post Number: 91 Registered: 6-2008 |
I agree that I probably used the wrong word when I said demon "possession," a term that to most people means something different from what I was thinking. I do believe, however,that in many cases of diagnosed mental illnesses, the afflicted person has not bowed to the supremacy of God, and given up--forgiven--the past injustices and abuses (and I agree wholeheartedly that a high percentages of such cases begin in childhood when others abuse the helpless child). But Satan is the "ultimate cause" of the long years of misery that result. And leaning on "the Everlasting Arms of Jesus" can bring a very real relief to the suffering one. I know there is a real place for well-educated medical people and the scientific breakthroughts of our age; I don't disparage this. But it is not the whole answer that our society seems to think. I have been diagnosed with BPD myself, with the main symptom of major depressin putting me in locked units 6 times. I was severely abused as a child, and I believe the resentment I carried for so many years was a big part of the problem. It was like Satan had a grip on my thinking processes, preventing real healing. I had to learn new ways of dealing with the past and anticipating the future. Medicine helped, but it can't do what God's love can do inside a person's heart, mind, body, soul, spirit. I praise God every day for getting the evil spirit of resentment out of me, whether that "spirit" means a real Satanic demon, or simply a mindset. Sorry, guys--I gotta go to a meeting, but I'll be back this afternoon. Yen | ||
| Cloudy Registered user Username: Cloudy Post Number: 138 Registered: 7-2007  |
Listening in and learning from this discussion. Thanks for sharing. | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 2003 Registered: 10-2002 |
Yen, for what it's worth, when I pray and ask God about you and what you've been through, what I hear in my spirit from Him is that you did *not* have a demon in you. You had wounds and the enemy tormented you in many ways, but you were not demonized in the sense of a demon taking over control of you. That's what I get when I ask Him about it, but that doesn't mean it's gospel. You and Him can talk about it if you like, but maybe it's just a not-really-necessary footnote on your experience. | ||
| Yenc Registered user Username: Yenc Post Number: 99 Registered: 6-2008 |
Thank you, Agapetos, for your prayers and your encouragement. For years, I asked, "Why, God? Why me? Why did you let an innocent child suffer like that?" I know now that my suffering did not come from God ("an enemy hath done this"), but God allowed it to His purposes and His glory! Whatever I suffered for so long is in the past. Yet good came out of it. For many years, I was a volunteer with a Bipolar Support Group, and although I no longer lead or attend the weekly meetings, my name is still (at my request) on a "hot line" call list for hurting people to call during the night. As the American poet has said so well, If I can stop one Heart from breaking I shall not live in vain If I can ease one Life the Aching Or cool one Pain Or help one fainting Robin Unto his Nest again I shall not live in vain. And isn't this the essence of the Golden Rule? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11305 Registered: 12-2003 |
We know from Ephesians 6:12 that our struggle in life is not "against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places." At the same time, the Bible is clear how we are to respond when we become aware of the gospel, of the truth of Jesus; we are to repent and to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. I believe it is important for us (and I'm speaking now of Adventism because that is our common concern and/or heritage) to acknowledge that it was evil. Evil simply means that it is devised in the domain of darkness and perpetrated as a deception to enslave the unsuspecting. If we simply look at Adventism as "wrong ideas" or flawed facts, we miss its true power and hold on us. I am convinced that the reason it is important to acknowledge that Adventism (or any other deception or false gospel) has evil behind it is that unless we do, we remain bound to it in subtle but profound ways. Since Paul has told us our battle is not "flesh and blood", or mere human error, we are obliged to acknowledge that a system of belief that misrepresents Jesus, salvation, righteousness, and the nature of man and sin has to be a product of darkness, not merely a "mistake". Renouncing Adventism and its deceptive spirit is actually a part of repentance. It's not a mystical, dabbling-in-the-dark-side experience. Rather, it is a clear acknowledgement that, despite our previous sincerity, we were under the influence of deception and had unbiblical beliefs that veiled our knowing the One True God in His three persons as He has revealed Himself in Scripture. We had been immersed in sin—even unwittingly—and we release our attachment to the attractive parts of that earlier deception and ask God to free us from the spirit of deceit and spiritual perversion we had believed was truth. I know people often become fearful when they hear the idea that there is literal evil, a spirit of deception, behind Adventism, and I've watched people back away from that reality. When people refuse to KNOW the truth about it (or about any false or deceptive practice or belief), they remain defensive of it at some level and do not experience the freedom of REALITY and truth. We know what is real and true as we submit our minds to Scripture. When we ask God to show us truth, He does. I want to say that renouncing the spirit of Adventism isn't a scary, mystical thing to do. It is simply prayer—it is being willing to know the truth and to ask God to remove the spirit of Adventism (or Mormonism or the occult or...) from our hearts and to replace it with His Spirit. It is surrendering our divided heart and asking Him to make it wholely His. Frankly, all of us are born into the domain of darkness (Col 1:13), and Paul tells us in Ephesians 2:1-2 that we were "dead in [our] trespasses and sins, in which [we] formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Repenting is renouncing evil--the reason it is important specifically to acknowledge the evil behind Adventism is that, unless we do, we remain blind to the reality of what we were in. It was not "harmless" or merely misguided. At the same time, there's no reason to feel afraid. It's simply acknowledging that God tells the truth in His word, and we submit ourselves to every word in Scripture and release to God all unbiblical and evil things that shaped us. We simply admit that we were slaves to evil, as Paul clearly states in Ephesians 2:1-3, and ask God to remove that from us and to give us Himself in the place we formerly fostered deception. He is faithful. He gives us Himself and sets us free, and we no longer have to rationalize or pretend. We can simply belong to Him, and He is enough! Colleen | ||
| Cindy Registered user Username: Cindy Post Number: 860 Registered: 7-2000 |
Thank-you Colleen, I appreciate and agree with your words...I also think this is important. The lingering entanglements of Adventism can wear us down. There is a very real unholy/unhealthy power that wants to destroy the freedom and peace we have in belonging to Jesus alone. grace, cindy | ||
| Yenc Registered user Username: Yenc Post Number: 103 Registered: 6-2008 |
(I apologize in advance for this: We have to get de-Harmon-ized!) | ||
| Nowisee Registered user Username: Nowisee Post Number: 432 Registered: 5-2009 |
Wow, Ramone! What a great post! Good one, Yenc! Made me smile...:D Very very interesting discussion, one and all! |
